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Thema: I want to buy two Schwalbe, can you help me?


  1. #1

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    Standard I want to buy two Schwalbe, can you help me?

    Hello everybody,
    first of all, excuse me for not writing in Deutch, wich I know only a little (enough to register in this nice forum!). I believe that many of you can read English.

    I am italian, I live in Udine (northern Italy, near Slovenja and Osterreich) and I wish to buy 2 Simson Schwalbe.
    A few months ago a friend of mine came back from Hamburg, where he was for three years, and told me about this "fashonable DDR moped". I started looking for info on the net just for fun, but soon became completely in love with this beautiful moped!
    I've decided to buy one, but there are no Schwalbe in Italy so I need to come to Deutschland. My friend wants one too, to remember the good times in Hamburg. Many other friends of ours are waiting to know how many Schwalbe we will be able to buy and bring back to Udine! Nobody can resist such a beautiful design...

    I need your advice, and your help if you can:

    1) I am now looking for 2 Schwalbe KR51/1 or /2, not authomatic, complete and with regular documents (I need them to bring the Schwalbe in Italy). What range of price do you think is correct for each?

    2) I checked many announces on the net, but only a few are from cities near to Osterreich. Wich site of announces do you suggest? (tried E-bay and mobile.de)

    3) I'd like to drive as far as Nurnberg to buy them, not much more... Is it better to look for them northern?

    4) I believe that if I could talk with someone "on the field" I could find them more easily than looking for announces. Do you suggest someone (reliable) that deals with old mopeds?
    Or can you directly help me in looking for 2 (or more!) Schwalbe near your place?

    I don't do this for work, it would be only for me and some friends. I am an architect, not a dealer!

    Thanks everybody!

    Rocco

  2. #2
    Chefkonstrukteur Avatar von Besier
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    Welcome at Schwalbennest

    1) A good Schwalbe costs about 600-800 €. But better don't look at eBay, the prices are too high, mobile.de, autoscout24.de and ebay.kleinanzeigen is better
    If you found a good one, which have no documents you probably can request them at kba in Flensburg (they have an own HP >> KBA Formulare )

    2) eBay.Kleinanzeigen, Mobile.de, autoscout24.de, eBay, markt.de, the local Newspapers and so on.

    3)The Simsons were produced in Eastern Gemany, so take a look in the East of Nürnberg (Amberg, Bayreuth). You Chances will be better !

    4)Theres a dealer in the area of Görlitz, but hes ab bad man and cheats people..
    I'm living near Mannheim, an there aren't many Simson around here:

    First

    Second

    Both are very expensive, but in good conditions, I think. But you will have to handle them down

    MfG
    Besier

    BTW: Sorry, for my moderate English
    Hercules - Stark auf zwei Rädern

  3. #3
    Restaurateur Avatar von Schwalbenchris
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    Hello Rocco,

    think of the effort you have to do to get a Schwalbe, and its spare parts. It would be a lot easier for you to buy you a nice old Piaggio Vespa...

    Greets,
    Schwalbenchris

  4. #4
    Flugschüler
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    Hello Rocco,

    what are the limitations for the motor vehicle licensing in Italy? Do you have a 50 ccm class with maximum speed of 45 or 50 km/h? The Schwalbe runs 60 km/h, wich is a eastern german speciality, and only due to a special (german) right of continuance the Schwalbe can be insured in the cheap 50 ccm-class in Germany. I read its quite complicated to run the Schwalbe in Switzerland, don't know how it is in Italy.

    A Vespa would of course be easier, but a Schwalbe in Italy would be way cooler

    2) I would also suggest eBay Kleinanzeigen | Kostenlos. Einfach. Lokal. Anzeigen gratis inserieren mit eBay Kleinanzeigen

    3) They were mainly sold in eastern Germany, so there ist a better choice.

    4) I think it will be very complicated to find 2 of them from Italy, I've had to see several to find the one I bought. I would not by on the private market before seeing the vehicle.

    What condition are you lokking for?

    You can buy a "wreck" for a few hundred quid and then rebuild it (cost from another few hundred to about 1.000 €, no limit of course). Having the engine refurbished by a pro will cost about 200 €. The Schwalbe is generally very beginner-friendly. As Besier said, a good one costs around 700,- and a refurbished one will start around 1.000,- €.

    There is a dealer in Demmin who has a very bad reputation. He inserts very cheap advertisements with all kinds of pretended locations under different names. When you contact him, he sends an e-mail telling you he has hundreds of them but you should come to his place (federal state Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, northeast germany). I would not go there.

    There is another dealer in Calau named Kfz-Handel Steffen Lange who inserts many offers on mobile.de Kfz-Handel Steffen Lange in Calau -. I have no experience with him, so I can neither recommend nor disadvive. Some say he is quite expensive, but he is a dealer, who will be more expensive than the private market. His verhicles are usually not refurbished, so they migth need some tlc.

    www.dumcke.de is a dealer I can really recommend for parts & stuff, sometimes he sells completely redone Simsons, which will be very expensive (I think > 2.000,- €). He doesn't have any in stock now, probably again in winter, you could ask, if you want to pay such a price.

    A completely redone Schwalbe from a hobbyist will start around 1.000,- €, but then you never know how well it's done.

    Good Luck!

  5. #5

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    Thanks to everybody for your answers,

    to Besier:
    don't be sorry for your English, it is very good (better than mine I believe). I am not looking for other Simson mopeds, they are nice too, but the one that took my heart is the Schwalbe!
    As you say, eastern Deutchland will be better... well, 200 km more won't stop me after travelling for 600!

    to Schwalbenchris:
    I do have a Vespa (1978 50R), I had many of them and used to buy and fix them for many friends, starting from 14 years old till now (I'm 29). I love Vespa but it is now sooo expensive. My little Vespa 50 from the '70, only complete and running, costs 1400 €. A restored one up to 2500! Ten years ago you could buy one for 150 €. My favourite was a 1969 Vespa 125 Primavera. I bought it in 2000 for 150 € (300.000 Italian "Lire"). I restored it by myself (engine, some parts and painting, 200 € for all the stuff). 2 years later I was living in France and sold it there for 700 €, that was 2 times its value in Italy. Now it is evaluated 4000 €!!
    I like cheap things, I love old things that nobody wants. When something becomes popular and the price grows, i feel like it doesn't needs me anymore. I know Schwalbe is becoming popular, but you cannot compare its popularity to Vespa's. Vespa is no more something good, cheap and reliable. It is ONLY fashion. That's why I'd like to show in my city something that is like Vespa 15 years ago. I bet many people would think "What an ugly moped, the Vespa is much better!" without knowing anything about Schwalbe and about Vespa. These people, 15 years ago, where thinking the same of the Vespa, because it was cheap. They still think "vintage" has to be "expensive". They think that something is beautiful when everybody likes it, I think something is beautiful when it is well done, works fine and after many decades it is still useful.
    All my motorcycles and old cars where cheap and well engineered: all my Vespa,
    1970 Puch-Frigerio 125,
    1980 Honda Xl 125,
    1980 Kawasaki Z400,
    1982 Honda Cb650,
    1979 Guzzi V50,
    1968 Fiat 500L,
    1974 AlfaRomeo Giulia,
    1972 Fiat 128.
    I am quite poor (really, Architecture was not a good idea...!), but I could buy these vehicles (not all of them at the same time of course!) use and repair them without spending much money. All of them where reliable and brought me around Italy and Europe without (big) problems. I always could sell them for at least the price I bought them 2 or 3 years before. All togheter, they costed less than a new little car. They where done better than a new car and will last 20 more years, while a new car runs 10 or 15 years then it's dead!
    All this to say: I have already thougt of the effort to come to Deutchland and bring back two Schwalbe, and I think it is worth it!

    to phklein:
    As you say, a Schwalbe in Udine would be very cool...
    About the speed limit (45 for mopeds), I don't worry. Registering something to the italian "vehicles register" is very hard, only a bit easier for a 50 moped. But, they NEVER saw a Schwalbe in that office, in the whole Italy, so they don't have any data about it. They will ask me the original documents and I think something will be difficult to read... Or else I could say I lost the documents: i already registered an old italian moped without documents (1958 Motom 48 E, a GREAT piece of Italian after-war engineering, four-stroke engine, 60 km/h, 80 km with 1 liter!! And beautiful fifties design! You can see one here) they asked me to find on the net all the technical data for it, I did it and they told me: "We cannot register it, here is said it runs 60 km/h!" I asked "Ok, then what should I do? Can I modify it to run 45 km/h?" The day after I brough a wine bottle and the registration was done. Don't laugh, Italy is not that bad. And I live in a place of Italy where people are known for following the rules. But the guy in the office had to admit that a moped from the '50 running 60 km/h is not a big trouble. He wrote on the documents "max speed: 45 km/h". I think he did his job well.
    What about the Schwalbe I look for? No need to have a refurbished one. No problem if the paint is not perfect, I like it when it looks old. I only need to have a complete Schwalbe, better if the engine is running well. I'd like to pay between 500 and 800 €. If I found problems when I'm back home I could always buy spare parts on the net from Italy. I think I can handle some reparation, I could always rely on this forum for some technical advice!

  6. #6
    Tankentroster
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    Hey, you could ask the guys of Home if they have some schwalben for you in a running status
    That's one of the closest shops to you, i think

  7. #7
    Flugschüler
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    well, that sounds like you were not totally incapable of restoring a Schwalbe .

    Would you also take a "wreck" to repair it yourself?

    You might even get help here, just don't mention tuning (forbidden here). But the Simsons are fast enough anyway.

    Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear always says you must have owned an Alfa to be a real petrolhead, you even qualify for that, nice Giulia.

    You'd better buy it fast, the Schwalbes are going through the same development as the Vespas.

    You can get new documents in Germany, but they will say 60 km/h.

    You could mention your search in the flea market here Suche Simson,maybe someone could help.

  8. #8
    Chefkonstrukteur Avatar von Besier
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    @rocco: You should now that there are many other Geman Scooters - not that I you want to convince the schwalbe - But perhaps they would be interesting for you

    Just Google the words:
    IWL Wiesel - Berliner Roller - NSU Prima D - NSU Lambretta - Hercules R 50 - Simson Kr 50 (Urschwalbe) - Zündapp R50 - Zündapp Bella - Victoria Preciosa - Heinkel Tourist - Maico Mobil...

    Yes, Germans built nice Scooters too
    Perhaps you like one of them, I only want to expand your horizon

    MfG
    Besier
    Hercules - Stark auf zwei Rädern

  9. #9
    Chefkonstrukteur Avatar von Albi
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    The Zündapp 50 looks like a vespa...
    Yesterday friends from Italy visited us. I showed the dad of the family my Schwalbe and he was very happy. Now, he also want to buy one.
    He is living in the North of Italy. I should search for him, maybe i will found an useable Schwalbe for him.

    @Rocco: I think, it might be the best,if you take an restaurated Schwalbe, and (thats only my opinion) if possible the KR 51/2, not the /1. The /2 has the newer engine.
    I think in the eastern Part of Germany you will find a Schwalbe for 500-800€ and in the west Part you have to pax more than 700€.

    But NEVER!!! buy a Schwalbe before testing and driving them! Don't use Ebay, the prices are too high, but an other User said that already. I hope you will get a nice one!!Good Luck

    Excuse my small English-Knowledge :)

  10. #10
    Chefkonstrukteur Avatar von Besier
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    One thing I want to say:
    @quoka.de they have very good prices:

    KLICK 1
    KLICK 2
    KLICK 3
    KLICK 4

    Bis denne
    Besier
    Hercules - Stark auf zwei Rädern

  11. #11

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    Many useful informations, thank you!

    very nice scooters Besier, I knew a few of them, I have to admit that Deutchland built many more different ones than Italy! Here Piaggio (Vespa) and Innocenti (Lambretta) have been the only two rivals for about 30 years, there was no market for other producers.

    Would I take a wrek to repair it all? I think so, I just need a complete machine and all the body parts in decent condition, I could try. The Schwalbe doesn't look complicated, does it?

    to schwalbe-albi:
    do you really think 51/2 has a better engine? I thought that the old fan-cooled was better, and it was replaced by the new engine only because it was expensive. Is the 51/2 engine more reliable?
    About a restored Schwalbe, sometimes I think it would be better to buy something that doesn't need to work on it. But at the end I think it is half of the fun, because working on something makes you know its details and love them.

    Looks like on quoka.de there is a lot of good Schwalbe. I will have a good look.

    Today I talked with the vehicles register office to be sure there will be no problems in registering a Schwalbe in Italy. They asked me to bring them a copy of the documents (technical data and anything else) of a Schwalbe, I think any model would be ok.

    1) What documents does a Schwalbe need to run in Deutchland? What are their names in Deutch?
    2) Would somebody here take a picture of these documents and post them here or send them to me, censoring on the picture all personal data? (don't do anything illegal, please!)

  12. #12
    Flugschüler
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    The /2-engine has sligthly more power and most of them (all, except the N-modell) have 4 gears. The old engine has a better cooling because of the fan when driving up mountains.

    You can get a new "Betriebserlaubnis" (operating licence) from the KBA (Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt - federal motor vehicle office), very helpfull if the seller has no papers. This is the paper you need to carry with you when driving.

    The "Typschein" contains more information and might be what the vehicles register office needs.

    You can find some documents here Suche Lärm- & Abgasdokumente, they are for the S51 (same engine as /2).

    The problem in Italy will probably be the Vmax of 60 km/h.

    You could ask the user "hallo-stege" who is an expert for all the paperwork. I think he mentioned once he also has an english user-manual.

  13. #13
    Chefkonstrukteur Avatar von Albi
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    Zitat Zitat von Rocco Beitrag anzeigen
    Would I take a wrek to repair it all? I think so, I just need a complete machine and all the body parts in decent condition, I could try. The Schwalbe doesn't look complicated, does it?

    to schwalbe-albi:
    do you really think 51/2 has a better engine? I thought that the old fan-cooled was better, and it was replaced by the new engine only because it was expensive. Is the 51/2 engine more reliable?
    About a restored Schwalbe, sometimes I think it would be better to buy something that doesn't need to work on it. But at the end I think it is half of the fun, because working on something makes you know its details and love them.
    I recommendet you an restaurated Schwalbe, cause you will have some problems with spare parts. Of course you will get all this in the internet, but there are no simson-workshops or simson-friends, which can help you. Better buy one in the middlle between "wrek" and "restaurated" so you needn't pay so much and you will having fun from the beginning.

  14. #14

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    Exactly what I think, half way between wreck and new would be perfect!

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